4WD Passenger Cars?

"I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner" (forvolvo) 06/09/2014 at 15:50 • Filed to: None

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OK I've been thinking about this for a while, and it might be crazy but I think that 4WD makes a lot more sense for enthusiast cars than AWD. Because you are unable to turn off AWD, you are stuck with it all the time, be it when you want to do burnouts or to drive in the snow. But if we make cars 4WD with a transfer case we can let the driver chose which wheels should be driven, RWD when they want burn outs, 4WD for snow, and even FWD. Wouldn't it be the best of both worlds or am I just crazy?

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 15:53

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I'd recommend cars/performance set ups still sticking to AWD.

It's also not great for the system to do hard turns with a true 4x4 system engaged.

pfftballer > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 15:55

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A transfer case and the bits that make a 4x4 go are too heavy to throw on a passenger car just to haul around and engage half a dozen times a year.

chuck07 > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 15:56

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I haven't seen a 4wd setup that would allow you to send power to just the front 2 wheels. Then again I haven't looked at too many trucks.

I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner > pfftballer 06/09/2014 at 15:58

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That's kinda what I was thinking, oh well

Alfalfa > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 06/09/2014 at 15:58

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I concur with this sentiment. AWD is much better for racing applications. There are benefits to both, and I do prefer a 4WD/RWD, but different people have different needs/wants/priorities.

area man > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 15:59

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Well, Subaru got halfway there with the GL/Leone. I can't find a pic that's definitely the sedan w/ 4WD but I know it was an option

I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 06/09/2014 at 15:59

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What about taking hard turns with 4x4 disengaged and just being in RWD? Sorry, I really don't know that much about 4x4

CalzoneGolem > chuck07 06/09/2014 at 15:59

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Just remove the rear drive shaft.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Alfalfa 06/09/2014 at 15:59

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I prefer it in a truck/SUV everytime, no questions asked.

Weight and higher speed turns aren't a concern in that format.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:00

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oh it's completely fine disengaged.

But wouldn't you want more of the grippies in the hard turns?

webmonkees > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:00

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The basic truth is that 90% of the time you don't need the 4wd and the other 10% is stuff you went for because of 4wd. Gotta have matching tires as well or it just binds up on solid ground.

It's basically FWD with the option to get out of trouble and back in if the thing binds. I need more practice.

I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner > webmonkees 06/09/2014 at 16:01

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Isn't that the same as AWD though? Most drivers have no need for AWD and it's largely just a marketing gimmick

promoted by the color red > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:01

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Cue the ERMAGERD DUBSTEP BRO types doing 6-grand clutch dumps in 4-low

HammerheadFistpunch > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:01

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4wd = awd. But in the context of your post I understand what you mean. The Jeep and Chrysler 200 series AWD is a fully decoupled PTO system that is FWD only in high traction situation but can be fully locked like 4HI. The Suzuki SX4 also had a manually decoupled AWD system that let you choose to run in fwd. many converted awd cars like The is250 and the Jag XF use a transfer case setup and it wouldn't be unheard of to make it optionally decoupling, but no one does that because buyers of AWD luxury sedans want automatic and seamless operation and low NVH more than lurid burnouts.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:02

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They tried it once already. It didn't work.

HammerheadFistpunch > chuck07 06/09/2014 at 16:02

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you could do it by installing manual hubs on the rear...somehow...but why would you?

I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:03

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I was thinking about having it disengaged because of the understeer from AWD.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:04

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Most passenger cars with "AWD" unless made Audi with a longitudinal drivetrain, or Subaru (mostly those with a manual gearbox, or 5-speed automatic) are mostly FWD or RWD with the other axle only engaging due to slip.

It is possible to dis-engage some higher-end AWD systems, but all the hardware is still there... even if there is a disconnection at some point in the drivetrain... the mass of the parts still has to be turned, either by the engine, or by drag imparted on the un-driven wheels, or a combination of both.

The only way to save that mass and drag is to not have the driveline parts in place, or to have multiple disconnects to allow half the drivetrain to just be dead, non-rotating mass... but then it would need to be engaged from a complete stop, not on the fly.

AWD with a center differential is essential for dry-surface driving, and any kind of performance, because a transfer case locks the axles together, and prevents turning without the tires being able to slip on the ground instead. A Transfer case with a slip coupling is essentially viscous or clutch-coupling AWD system, with a locking mode, and a disengagement, again with all the mass of those rotating parts.

An AWD performance car is just fine with full-time AWD, and superior in anything other than dry pavement... and usually the superior grip tends to counteract the drivetrain inertia it costs, when 2WD cars lose traction otherwise.

But if all there ever is, is dry pavement... (or drifting, or dirt track intended for sliding), then RWD is preferred, and the complication and mass may as well not be included in the car, which is why AWD cars and RWD cars simultaneously exist, but aren't the same specific car.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:06

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well, there's pluses and minuses to all the systems (FWD, RWD, AWD, 4x4). it's really about how you're going to use the vehicle. Remember no one vehicle can do EVERYTHING

HammerheadFistpunch > area man 06/09/2014 at 16:07

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webmonkees > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:08

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4wd in the case of the Subaru is more direct, and differences in rotation can cause the stuff to bind up.

Sorry, to clarify, this is all when the 4wd is active. Otherwise it's just a fwd compact with weird extra levers.

AWD has a system of distributing the load in such a way as to not have to worry about that stuff. It's definitely evolved over time. A new, modern approach to 4wd is electric motors on the wheels, but that's the realm of Merlin.

area man > HammerheadFistpunch 06/09/2014 at 16:08

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Magic button!

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > area man 06/09/2014 at 16:08

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I love two-door hatch Leones.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:08

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I'd say marketing gimmick is a little harsh, they DO sell them the mechanical capability. I would think gimmick would be like selling it as AWD and them only getting FWD

I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:10

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Ahhh good point. I was just saying about how most drivers have no need for it, and how FWD with snow tires are better than AWD with all seasons

webmonkees > area man 06/09/2014 at 16:11

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At a point they decided to make them all 4wd, but any 2wd can be converted easily. If the chassis hasn't rusted away too much for anything to bolt on. I kid.

area man > webmonkees 06/09/2014 at 16:12

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But you speak da truth.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:12

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well that's an argument there lol.

But, my FWD Mercury Milan V6 did great all winter here in Michigan.

Oh and did I mention it was the largest snowfall in Metro Detroit history this winter?

HISTORY. Over 92 inches of snowfall, I think somewhere around 96.

All Season tires too btw.

I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:13

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At the end of the day it all comes down to the driver haha!

jariten1781 > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:13

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That kind of setup might be interesting in a modernized mini-offroader (think Suzuki Samurai). Having a system where you could manually adjust power to any combination of the wheels would be a fun novelty, though it probably wouldn't be appreciably better than other 4x4 or AWD systems. Not in anything road performance oriented though, just think of all the weight you'd be carrying around for nothing 99% of the time.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:16

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honestly that's a lot of it. I passed plenty of full size 4x4 pickups in ditches this winter. If they could get over themselves they'd do great out there.

I grew up driving 4x4 Blazers so it was never an isue.

Garrett Davis > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:22

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The XJ Cherokees had an optional NP249 transfer case with full time 4x4 as well as part time and low range. Three differentials, bro. Tres diffs, homes. Trois diffs, mon frere.

I guess there wouldn't really be a need for something like that in a car as much?

webmonkees > area man 06/09/2014 at 16:24

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Yes, but if you start out right, like 47K.. Here, spend $3,000, a bit more getting the 5-speed 4wd system from a next-gen Leone, drop that automatic out, there's more room in the transmission tunnel than manuals.

Not that I think about these things.

Textured Soy Protein > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 16:37

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My Grand Cherokee has a transfer case but it doesn't have a rwd mode. Only positions on the 4wd shifter are 4H, N and 4L.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 17:01

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Most drivers dont know what they want tho...when everyone masters the turn signal then we can have nice things.

Also my B5 S4 would like to have a word with you.

deekster_caddy > I Do It For Miatas, NC Owner 06/09/2014 at 17:04

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In general I don't have an issue with FWD cars. Sure they aren't the best high speed track cars, no powersliding allowed, but I've seen aggressive FWD cars on more casual track days doing very well and holding their own. There are FWD cars that go to SCCA meets and perform just as well as many RWD cars. (blasphemous! How dare I!!!) Seems like it's over-complication of the drivetrain. I think you are better off to put the effort into weight balance instead. (things like moving the battery back, use an aluminum/carbon hood, etc) You'll save a lot of weight overall by leaving out half the drivetrain...